Injector question

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KREMSRX7
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Injector question

#1 Post by KREMSRX7 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:42 pm

Hi all.
Before i get gassed for such a (maybe) silly question, yes i did use the search button and didn’t really find an answer, so here goes

I’m after injectors for my 13brew, i know i need rail conversions but I’m just stuck on the huge differentials in pricing.
Some sites I’ve been to offer a Bosch 1700cc e85 safe injectors for as little as $165 and others up to $550, are there special things i should be looking for or am missing in the fine print??
I running an extend port fd block, efr9180 and e85, want around 500whp but also good idle control and drive ability, also dont want to be stinking of petrol fumes (probably bit much for a rotor but anyways!!) so I’ve researched and some say 4x1700cc and others say 2x1050 and 2x2000 but the 2000 (or 2200) seem to be not warranted for e85??
Any help is greatly appreciated as always
Cheers, krem


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Re: Injector question

#2 Post by Slides » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:09 pm

If you are doing anything more than chucking secondaries in a skimmed primary rail I would spend the extra on ID alky rated injectors (not sure if the older 1700 and 1300s were full stainless), if not outrageous power 1050 primary and 1700 sec would probably be fine. If you stay under 2000cc in new ID as primaries you should be able to idle fine with decent ignition timing on pump fuel ok.

I would look at rails from ffe (?) or the ones with a damper that turblown sell. It is more up front but quality gear and you won't be chasing weird issues due to fuel pulsation or sticky injectors and can run rail pressure compensated fuel model/safeties with most decent ecus.
Last edited by Slides on Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Injector question

#3 Post by Slides » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:16 pm

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Re: Injector question

#4 Post by KREMSRX7 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:51 am

Ok thanks for the reply slides, but it dont answer my question on the huge price difference between sites, are there any differences between the injectors or are some sites just ripping ppl off??
Here is a link to the cheaper Bosch injectors I’m looking at. Will they do the job i need them too??
http://www.dtsturbo.com.au/BSS2000/Bosc ... ngs/pd.php
I can sort of understand that ID injectors are the ‘must have’ item of the month, And pls excuse my stupidity, are they that much better compared to the Bosch for the price??
Thanks again,
Krem


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Re: Injector question

#5 Post by bumpstart » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:36 pm

the 2000/2200 are not MTBE tolerant. they are a CNG injector . MTBE is found in 98 petrol and in race e85 . but NOT in normal e85

they are fine on standard e85 and will idle ok even on a microtech on that fuel.
there is one i tune 4 x 2200 at 450 out there ,though for sure expect an e85 stink

the later bosch 0280158334 1650 cc and the ID1700 will work with either petrol ( with MTBE ) or e85 fuels so offer a better compromise

if you want outright flow there is a seimens 2400 unit that is e85 and mtbe compatible



for the price the ID stuff is more consistent and comes with the proper data you need to fill in deadtimes and minimum flow values when you have very good ecus that do VE tuning
having that stuff to hand can make initial setup and good tuning a breeze.. uncapped un-named injectors may be asking for trouble


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Re: Injector question

#6 Post by KREMSRX7 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:13 pm

Ok thanks for your post, it helps out a lot, I wasn’t aware that there were different types of e85, ](*,)

I would be running e85 from the bowser so i need the mtbe compliant injectors, also i guess it would be nice to be able to switch to 98 if i needed to as here in tassie there are limited outlets with e85 and i dont want the hassle of having drums of it laying around. The car will be used as much as possible.

I’m running an elite 2500 ecu, so i guess thats got what i need to VE tune? (Have no idea what it is but its on my list to research)

I guess my main issues are and i find it hard to get my head around, ppl have been using Bosch injectors in their normal form (ie, Indy blue’s) for ever and seem to have little issues, now all I’m reading about is these ID that are modified Bosch and am trying to justify the huge price difference when i could use original Bosch.

I did look at the turbosource kit and its Hard to justify (for me) the nearly $2k price for rail and injectors,

Lol, i guess I’ve been looking at the elcheapo raceworks rail and injectors thinking they will do the same job??

Don’t get me wrong, i totally understand that you get what you pay for and i understand the whole “buy the right shit the 1st time to save $$ in the long run” thing as I’m in the building industry where cheap shit tools and materials just cost more in the long run, just the price difference is huge between the injectors and rails.

Will the said Bosch 1650cc injectors x4 be suitable for my power goals and be able to be setup for good driveability with my ecu or do i sell both my kids and just get the whole turblown kit and be done with it??

For those who have done builds like this before (this is my 1st), is it worth the extra when can get similiar for half to cost??

Cheers again, krem


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Re: Injector question

#7 Post by KREMSRX7 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:40 pm

So if i were to buy the turblown kit with injectors, which injectors should i go with since the 2000 wont run with mtbe fuels as i will sometimes need to run small amounts of 98 (or could i use 95 if that dont have mtbe IF i needed to?)

Should i go with 2x 1050 and 2x 1700,

Or 2x 1300 and 2x 1700

Or just 4x 1700

Bearing in mind, the amount of 95-98 i would be running will be minimal, so if I’m out for a cruise and am running low, it might be say 10lt to get me home or to the nearest e85 pump,

Also is there a difference in the quality of the flex fuel sensors, I’ve also seen them from as little as $120 up to $400 ](*,)

This building shit fucks with your brain, especially when your a dumbass (dyslexic) like myself!!

Cheers again, Krem


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Re: Injector question

#8 Post by WANKfactor » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:07 pm

.


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Re: Injector question

#9 Post by WANKfactor » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:22 pm

I was going to agree with you how confusing choosing injectors can be given the differing fuel compatibilities, spray patterns, price and everything else among different size injectors that are the same make and series.
But rule of thumb would have to be to have enough injector to still have some duty cycle headroom to cover an overboost situation for what ever turbo you are running. Same goes for the pump/s. It can be worked out mathematically fairly easily. Dont ask me to do it though lol.
The 9180 is a bit of a beast at 95lb of air per minute. It might be an idea to err on the side of caution and get the bigger injectors, especially on e85.
Just doing a quick look around, it seems the ID injectors are now much more available and affordable in Australia compare to when i was in the market for them a few years ago, at which time they seemed to me to just be a rebranded ev14 with a shiny hat and 2-3x the price.
It is interesting Bumpstart brings up how the 2000/2200cc ID injectors are not MTBE (whatever that is) compatible which means no 98ron, because while they are advertised as such they are also advertised as being compatible with all hydrocarbon fuel. They are also supposed to be the most accurate injector for deadtimes and whatnot (through some kind of witchcraft i dont pretend to understand)


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Re: Injector question

#10 Post by KREMSRX7 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:15 pm

Yeah its all over my head, which isn’t hard to be honest!! Lol

I know i need a lot of fuel which brings me to the largest injector as said, but its mtbe intolerant (according to both bump and specs I’ve seen online).

So i thought 4x 1700 (or 1650, whatever they are) would be enough maybe??

Also I’ve found the xr6t guys have had great success with the KPM injectors, similiar setup with data like ID but Australian company, they start with the Bosch item and make their own up to a 1700cc, will post up the link, if they have the data supplied and are matched for flow and can support an Aussie company, and 1700cc will be enough, then i think i might try them.

They have a $100k+ machine in their lab for testing the injectors, and a full time fluid engineer, not that it mean anything except they have invested into their r&d to produce results.

https://www.kpmfuelsystems.com.au/produ ... injectors/

So the big question is, i need a firm answer, will 4x 1700 injectors be enough with e85??

Cheers again, krem


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Re: Injector question

#11 Post by bumpstart » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:02 pm

all of the elite series ecu's when in rotary mode will be Ve tune

the link for the 1700's has no confirmation they are e85 ok

bosch themselves put up bulletins about the 2000 / 2200 CNG injector

Australian fuels can be a max of 1% MTBE , and its often the difference in 98 RON fuel compared to 91 ..
91 is the base fuel in e85 . 98 is the base fuel in "race e85"

the other race fuels have even higher MTBE content

4x 1700 cc injectors on e85 will deliver the same power as 4x 1200 cc injectors on 98. safe at 450 but at limits on 500

choosing an adaptronic allows you to choose as many injectors as you wish and in up to 4 stages . its as easy as a few selections on pull down menus

choosing an elite manifold with the 4 secondary injectors will give you 6 x 1700 and you have covered all bases on any fuel


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Re: Injector question

#12 Post by Slides » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:30 pm

Haltech themselves sell a flex sensor last time I checked which I image they will be happier to support if you have problems.

You could undoubtedly run well enough on older stuff as people have in the past, people were running 4x 1600s on pump fuel. I guess the question is why bother spending the $$ on an ecu with good hardware and software and not injectors that will recover their cost difference in fuel consumption/plug life (if tuned as well as they can be) and have perfect supplier support if something does go wrong. I think the safety provided by fuel pressure monitoring is also very valuable but again it is more up front cost.

If you go cheap and cheerful without a damper in combination with large injectors try to keep a bit of softer fuel line in the system or offset primary and secondary injection angles a bit to try and reduce pulsation effects. You see heaps of 4 cylinder guys having problems with big injectors for alcohol fuel and lots of fancy hard line/PTFE that isn't obvious without fuel rail pressure logging.



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Re: Injector question

#13 Post by KREMSRX7 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:05 pm

Ok, i just want to thank you guys heaps, i really do appreciate the advice

So just down to a last few questions then.

Is reaching my power goals safely and reliably attainable on 98 meaning i could go with smaller injectors??

If not

Could i run 2x 1700 and 2x 2000 (ID with the turblown rail kit) and have enough headroom for pump e85?? I know that the 2000 are not MTBE tolerant but at around 1% of it in 98 and the amount of 98 i will be running (only if I’m gonna run out of fuel to get home or to the nearest e85 bowser so only a few lt, and it would be mixed with e85 anyways to dilute it more) it shouldn’t be a huge problem should it??
I mean i could run e10 or 95 and drive off boost until i get to the nearest pump even??

Ive been given the all clear from the ministeress of finance to spend wat it takes to make a long lasting engine, just means it takes longer to save thats all.

Thanks so much, if i could just get the last of my questions answered i would really appreciate it

Krem


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Re: Injector question

#14 Post by KREMSRX7 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:14 pm

So i just checked the prices of the ID injectors, and the 2000 are cheaper than the 1700 (turblown website), would i be better off with the larger for primary or is it easier to get a nicer idle/cruise with the 1700,

Pls remember this os a street car and my kids will be in it frequently so i dont wanna be stinking of fumes (lol, maybe i should own a rotor huh ](*,) ](*,) )

If the 1700 is gonna be plenty, the extra few $$ wont matter in the scheme of things, and like said above (and I didn’t really think of in the 1st place) is the ability to finer tune and get better economy will save that extra anyways.

Also, what’s the plug and play adapter thingies?? Do i need them??

Cheers, again
Krem


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Re: Injector question

#15 Post by bumpstart » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:22 am

just go the siemens if you have to swap back and forth and only want to use the 4 injectors or a stock LIM
there is no questions with the performance there on either fuel

yes 1% MTBE will fuck the injectors or worse the engine. at the very least you will be buying injectors again in short order
there is much anecdotal evidence in injector test videos that it can make the 2000cc injectors erratic
the 2000's can work . with normal e85. in cars that get a lot of use and no need for flushes

the secret to no stink is to get the deadtimes and minimum flow values and use a very good ecu . the adaptronic has all this mapped out already and in pull down selections

a fuel block is just a cube with a temp and pressure sender screwed into it .
the radium damper will improve the signal quality so no false engine save triggers from vibrations
and it will quiet the injectors and make the real flow much more consistent to the VE model
it is often overlooked but can be necessary with very large injectors if you want to keep things consistent and quiet
( note the elite assumes a fuel model . the adaptronic can assume or can actually fuel model using pressure and temp on pull down selection )
radiumblock.jpg
fuelblock.jpg


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