All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 157 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Legal engine conversions and engineering thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 6:50 pm 
Offline
Get a Girlfriend
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 01, 2003 7:28 am
Posts: 2865
Location: On power-oversteer
OK, since this seems to come up every second day with everyone wanting to put a 13BT in the RX3 they lie awake dreaming of buying, I thought it was worth making a thread that could go in the reference archive. I'll start with what has been covered for NSW and leave the other states for others to fill in.

So, from the Light Vehicle Modification guidelines
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/ ... /vsi06.pdf

Maximum engine sizes:

For any car, the maximum allowable increase that does not require engineering is 15% above the maximum size engine
available for the vehicle. So, e.g. my RX2 just gets away with a NA 13B without engo :D having come out with a 12A.

For any other conversion for anything other than an Independently Constructed Vehicle (see RTA link, I'm not going into it here), it is based on the OEM tare weight according to the RTA, not weighbridge weight especially not when it's done with a couple of chunks of depleted Uranium chucked in the back. according to the table below

Image

and this, taken from http://www.alphalink.com.au/~hillsk/maxcap.htm

Image
Sorry, no S2 or 3 RX7 TW. Someone else casn post them up.

And the RTA considers a rotary capacity to be 2x it's swept volume.

So for the most common rotary conversions:

20B NA: 3924cc equivalent, anything over 1308kg
20BT or supercharged, 1570kg minimum

13B NA: 2616cc, 872kg min
13BT/SC: 1046kg min

12A NA: 2292cc, 764kg min
12AT/SC: 917kg min

From the table above you can work out whether what you want to do is legal in NSW. You may be able to do these conversions and then find Cousin Tony The Certified Engineer to sign them off, but it will still be illegal, engineering certificate or not. This has implications mainly for insurance. KYPREO has dealt with these issues so I have pasted his comments here, from this thread:
http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php?t=19530&highlight=13bt+legal+insurance+engineers
KYPREO wrote:
A lot of the has been answered before, and you will find more info by searching, but I'll spell out a few things.

app13b wrote:
ok say u get a 13bt in a 1300 engineered with all brakes, suspension, driveline etc done with the conversion done properly. Obviously tho, the rta rule says this conversion is still a no-no, but u are able to get it engineered.


An engineer can only sign off on modifications where the statute or regulations specify an engineer can sign off.

Engineers aren't members of parliament, nor are they part of the public service administering the law, so they have no ability to legalise something that is not legal. They can only fulfil functions conferred on them by others.

In NSW, the regulations specify capacity/weight ratios within which you can legally register a passenger vehicle.

Outside these ratios, you must certify the car as an Individually Constructed Vehicle (or ICV). Information on this can be found by searching using the term 'icv'.

Quote:
now, you are driving down the street and u have an accident. Is your insurance cover still void (you have told them all the modifications), or can they say it isnt legal (what about the certificate?) and refuse to pay up???


your insurance is void, as it was fraudulently obtained. there are also standard terms used in contracts of insurance which indemnify the company where the vehicle was not legally registered. This is a right the insurance company would have to assert - its not void until they void it, is what I'm saying here.

Quote:
wat about CTP...you are covered under that no matter wat arent you (even tho the car is illegal)?


Because you have paid the compulsory premium as part of your registration, you are still covered for no fault compulsory third party injury insurance. Obviously it would be illogical to have such a scheme if victims were denied money whenever someone broke the law and caused them injuries.

Quote:
So basically a certificate means nothing?


no. people misunderstand what a certificate means. It is not a certificate specifying that something is legal. It is a certificate certifying modifications comply with particular standards, where the law requires those standards be certified by an engineer.

Unfortunately you live in the state with the most draconian car laws in the country. Perhaps you should move to Melbourne where its much nicer all round and girls are better looking. :lol:

NOTE: this info above is for NSW only and may differ elsewhere


At the end of the day, if you have a 20B RX3 or 13BT R100 or whatever, certified before the current laws, you're a lucky bastard and we all hate you :P . If you want to do the conversion now it'll be illegal, like most other fun in this state, and no amount of dodgy engineering certificates or grinding numbers off will alter that. If you do it, I guess you better hope you never have to make an insurance claim.
Or buy one of my mate's vast collection of half-converted project Mazda 121s instead :lol:

_________________
"If you turn hard enough right, you'll find yourself going left."
- Doc Hudson.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:11 pm 
Offline
Rotor Junkie

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2002 11:45 pm
Posts: 4757
Location: Near Sydney
u made a few minor mistakes :)

any car over 1100kg with mono body with turbo ml = kg x 4.0

any car over 1100kg with seperate chassis with turbo ml = kg x 4.68.

so a 1100kg car can have a 20bt

and a 1200kg car can have a quad rotor turbo :shock:


one thing i just noticed any car having a option of a 6 cylinder or bigger and a full chassis only has to be 550kg to have a 13bt :shock:

850kg for a 20bt

and a just over 1100kg for a quad rotar turbo

mmm....interesting

or a 6 cylinder car with mono body can weigh 970kg can have a 20bt.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:13 pm 
Offline
Rotor Junkie

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2002 11:45 pm
Posts: 4757
Location: Near Sydney
i can think of a number of cars that fit these rules easily :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:19 pm 
Offline
Boost Me Up
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:38 am
Posts: 693
Location: Western Suburbs of Melbourne
And what about Melbourne? Can we register anything we want if it's engineered?

_________________
This space intentionally left blank


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:29 pm 
Offline
Spitting Seals

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:37 pm
Posts: 804
Location: sydney
definetly tech reference this!


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 7:45 pm 
wo thats was crazy, im guess 12a into 1300 wagon easy done :) i live in sa where plate swappin is done everyday


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:13 pm 
Offline
Get a Girlfriend
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 01, 2003 7:28 am
Posts: 2865
Location: On power-oversteer
Thanks Johnopaul, I knew I'd miss stuff... tired and sick of staring at computer when I was assembling that. Any other corrections feel free to add, as long as they're actually from RTA of course, not But My Mate Shane Reckons That...

I'll get around to editing my post with corrections soon.

1300wagz, this is only for NSW. No idea what the SA engine conversion restrictions are. I'm hoping someone will post them up.

_________________
"If you turn hard enough right, you'll find yourself going left."
- Doc Hudson.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:17 pm 
Offline
Post Whore
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2002 2:48 am
Posts: 7966
Location: Rehab
someone get QLD info up as well...

on a side note everything is legal till you get caught :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:17 pm 
sideways wrote:
Thanks Johnopaul, I knew I'd miss stuff... tired and sick of staring at computer when I was assembling that. Any other corrections feel free to add, as long as they're actually from RTA of course, not But My Mate Shane Reckons That...

I'll get around to editing my post with corrections soon.

1300wagz, this is only for NSW. No idea what the SA engine conversion restrictions are. I'm hoping someone will post them up.

your reackon would be diffrent down here in south oz? easier/ harder anyone know


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:18 pm 
Offline
Boost Me Up

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 3:58 am
Posts: 737
Location: Albury
No aftermarket fuel computer can be used in NSW, AFAIK without going through an IM.240 emissions test ($800 -$3000 per test).
You hand over the money first. No guarantees it'll pass ,if it fails bad luck.
No refund.

_________________
Maztech Let the games begin
RX3 coupe, 3 rotors, triple the trouble !!!


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:32 pm 
Offline
Rotor Junkie

Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 6:21 am
Posts: 4763
Location: sydney
The table of weights above and the weights you need to use when doing an engine conversion are different.

CAH13B posted up a good list of all the weights that the RTA carries on their books, ie: the weights you should use when doing an engine conversion, the above posted kerb weights unfortunately are pretty much irrelevant.

The only ones i can remember on hand are:

RX4 - 1030KG
RX2 - 960KG

There is no different weights for auto/manual 2/4 door, there is one strict weight figure used for the entire range of cars, and they are all pretty much lower than what that table lists :(

If you go by that table you might get the idea that you can legally fit a 20BT to an RX4 when in reality you cannot even fit a 13BT when using the 1030KG weight.

-edit:
heres the thread all the rta weight figures are in:
http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php? ... light=tare


Last edited by yadav on Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:34 pm 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2002 9:40 am
Posts: 8432
Location: Alice Springs
pimpwagz wrote:
your reackon would be diffrent down here in south oz? easier/ harder anyone know


AFAIK, just about anything is legal, as long as it is registered and engineered.

for example, you say you want 13BT R100, (if I remember correctly) you submit a form saying you want to put 13BT into R100, you fill out everything that is being done, brakes, diff, chassis mods etc.
they then reply, telling you either yes, that can be done, or yes that can be done, but you need to have it tested by an engineer, and once the report is done, we will then let it be registered legally.

I'm not sure if thats exacvtly how it works, but I'm pretty sure its something like that.

for example, the orange HIRPM R100 in adelaide is fully street legal with its 17" simmons, worked 13BT, and a half rollcage.

_________________
Please help to keep Ausrotary a good resource, and report any spam or offensive posts with the report button.

Please, dont feed the trolls.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:46 pm 
Offline
Rotor Junkie

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2002 11:45 pm
Posts: 4757
Location: Near Sydney
here we go again :oops:

get a pre 1972 model , and u have to comply with the adr and emissions for ur model car, not the donar engine.

so an after market computer is fine, depending on what model car u have :wink:

so the older the car the less u have to worry about.

pre 1972 is the way to go.

even better are cars that are before compliance plates :)

bring on the mid 60's models


Last edited by johnopaul on Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:02 pm 
Offline
Epitrochoid Shaped Head
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:16 pm
Posts: 1716
Location: Mackay, Queensland
yedev wrote:
The table of weights above and the weights you need to use when doing an engine conversion are different.

CAH13B posted up a good list of all the weights that the RTA carries on their books, ie: the weights you should use when doing an engine conversion, the above posted kerb weights unfortunately are pretty much irrelevant.

The only ones i can remember on hand are:

RX4 - 1030KG
RX2 - 960KG

There is no different weights for auto/manual 2/4 door, there is one strict weight figure used for the entire range of cars, and they are all pretty much lower than what that table lists :(

If you go by that table you might get the idea that you can legally fit a 20BT to an RX4 when in reality you cannot even fit a 13BT when using the 1030KG weight.

-edit:
heres the thread all the rta weight figures are in:
http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php? ... light=tare

Thanks for putting the link in mate. All of what you have said is 100% correct.
Dave, the weights that you have listed there, are, unfortunately, as has been said, not the weights to be used to LEGALLY do an engine conversion.
In the above link are the correct weights. :wink: The correct weight being the TARE weight, as provided to the RTA by the manufacturer.

These are the correct tare weights:
CAH13B wrote:
I spoke to the RTA (NSW) today, and these are the tare weights that they have on their books:

R100: 860kg
RX-2: 960kg - 1974 4 door sedan
RX-3: 860kg - 2 door sedan? that was their term
890kg - 4 door sedan dx automatic
RX-4: 1030kg - 1976 4 door sedan
RX-5: 1170kg - manual
1220kg - automatic
RX-7: 1030kg - 1979
1040kg - 1980 - different chassis number
1080kg - 1984 - different chassis number
1180kg - 1986 - sports
1220kg - limited
1210kg -sports turbo
1250kg -limited turbo
1370kg - S (convertible)
1230kg - 1989 - coupe
1300kg - turbo


Craig 8)

_________________
Image
S4 RX-7, sold Jan '09


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:10 pm 
Offline
Epitrochoid Shaped Head
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:16 pm
Posts: 1716
Location: Mackay, Queensland
johnopaul wrote:
here we go again :oops:

u have to comply with the adr and emissions for ur model car, not the donar engine.


Not correct.

Quote:
1972 and later model vehicles with substitute engines must meet the intent of the later of the Australian Design Rules applicable to either:
a) the original vehicle; or
b) the substitute engine.


So, for example, a S3 RX-7 with a 13BT from a S5, would have to comply with the relevant ADR from the late 80s/early 90s.

Craig 8)

_________________
Image
S4 RX-7, sold Jan '09


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:20 pm 
Well at least im safe with being a 1970 model. :D


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:23 pm 
Offline
Boost Me Up
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:38 am
Posts: 693
Location: Western Suburbs of Melbourne
Is Melbourne similar to Adelaide? Because if not then that sucks.

_________________
This space intentionally left blank


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:36 pm 
Offline
Rotor Junkie

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2002 11:45 pm
Posts: 4757
Location: Near Sydney
graig,

u are correct its only after 1972

Quote:
1972 and later model vehicles with substitute engines must meet the intent of the later of the Australian Design Rules applicable to either:
a) the original vehicle; or
b) the substitute engine.


theres some people in shit if the epa get hold of them :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:48 pm 
What year model is your celica paul? :)
So Johno are you right about the weights or is yedev right, im very confused. :)


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:08 am 
Offline
Rotor Junkie

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2002 11:45 pm
Posts: 4757
Location: Near Sydney
mine is a 1971 :D

as for weights ive got no idea how heavy the mazda cars are, all i know if i had say :wink: '' a 1969 xxxxxxx ute, i can legally put a 20bt in the thing"

as its seperate chassis, 6 cylinder so its orig weight x 4.68 for a turbo engine, and it would only need to weight 850kgs to pass.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 157 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group